Still undecided on EU Referendum?

I suspect like me you’re sick and tired of people using their status to try and persuade you to stay in or leave the EU….I don’t CARE which way some actor is going to vote….or that the referendum is tearing the Tory party apart (though I do take some delight in watching it happen)…

But over the last couple of days two posts have been doing the rounds on Facebook – one for leave and one for stay – the contrast is interesting, as are the arguements and so I thought it’d be helpful to put them side by side (or at least one above the other).

Two normal blokes…saying what they think.

The first is this one:

I’m not into politics, and I dont pretend I know whats going on, politically, half the time, but, I know whats right and…

Posted by Mally Atkinson on Monday, 23 May 2016

… here it is in full

I’m not into politics, and I dont pretend I know whats going on, politically, half the time, but, I know whats right and whats wrong, and I think I’m pretty good at judging people.
I always voted Labour, because that was the thing to do, living in the North East.
My dad was North East secretary for the Transport and General Workers Union, and the Shop Steward for the TGW at Tees Dock, where he worked.
He was staunch Labour, and if they were good enough for him, they were good enough for me.

Years passed, my dad died, and I carried on voting Labour, UNTIL Tony Blair became the leader.
Never trusted him. He was Smarmy, and definately not representative of the working classes he was supposed to represent.
Then we got Gordon Brown, then Milliband. All cut from the same cloth. Now we have Corbyn, a joke of a man who refuses to sing the national anthem, but wants to serve in her majestys government.
Since Blair, I never voted Labour again. Actually, I never voted at all. Could never vote for the Tories or LibDems. Could never trust a Tory and the other mob were just making up the numbers, but had no real policies because they themselves, never actually believed they’d get in, but were too busy trying to satisfy everybody.

I, like the rest of the country, just plodded on, whoever was running the country. I never benefitted from them, even under Labour, who were supposed to look after me.

Now this referendum has come up. I remember when we went into the EU, sort of. We had to do a project at school about it. Back then, there were 7 (or 9) countries in it…. and thats as much notice as I took.

Now, we are being told we are better off staying in. If we leave, jobs will be lost. House prices will fall. Inflation will rise. The country will be at risk from attack etc etc etc.

This is where all the previous stuff I wrote is heading…..

Since joining the EU in 1973, the Dock Labour scheme has been scrapped (this would have guaranteed me a job when I was 21, on fantastic wages)
The docks were privatised, and the dockers are on just above minimum wage.

The whole of the British coal industry has gone.

Nearly all of the shipbuilding has gone.
ICI has gone, sold off to Americans (who ran it into the ground and laid off thousands)

British Steel has gone. Sold off to far eastern companies. Again, thousands laid off year after year until there wasnt the workforce to make it viable.

All our power companies, and possibly the water companies as well, are foreign owned (Even British Gas)

Coachworks, that build our trains in Derby and York, have had to close or lay thousands off, because our governments gave the work to foreign coach builders (they said they had to put it out to tender. EU rules.

We are now living in a country were no job is secure.
Workers rights dont exist (dont believe the governments spiel about we are better off in the EU to protect our workers rights).
If you want to claim unfair dismissal nowadays, you need to have worked at that company for 2 years (unless you are claiming for discrimination).

There are more people working through agencies now than ever before, and, whereas in the past, agency workers were on good money, they aren’t anymore.
Agencies are killing the economy. You cant get a mortgage, a bank loan, a car or credit to buy goods, if you work through an agency.

Zero hours contracts ! Where did these appear from ? Where were the EU workers rights that day ?
Why are they still being allowed to be used, and why are the government allowed to sanction people who refuse to take these jobs ?

Housing.
Young couples cant afford mortgages nowadays, unless they are both in well paid, secure jobs (as secure as jobs can be nowadays)
God help those living down south. Prices are bad enough in the north.
Those with money, like investors, businessmen etc, will buy these cheaper house and make a killing when the prices go back up (which they will)

Inflation will rise.
Thats why its called inflation.
I have recently found out the EU control what price we pay for petrol.

Our National Security is at risk outside of the EU.

Really !!!! European countries opened their borders to thousands, if not millions of migrants, allowing them to pass through wherever they wanted to go, unchecked.
We are more at risk being part of the EU than we’ll ever be if we leave. We will still have the back up of NATO, should we ever need it (they’ll need us more than we’ll need them) as we will still be part of Europe.

Lets also not forget, that the EU banned punishment in schools. Ive always said, since that happened, we, as a country, have gone downhill. Kids now have no respect for teachers, for the police, for their elders. They are practically feral.
National service should be brought back, to at least give them a chance in life.

The European Court Of Human Rights.
Oh yeah. This is the court that lets hate preachers, foreign criminals, rapists, muderers and paedophiles waste our money by us wanting to deport them, and they say, no, you cant. The accused has a cat that wont be looked after if hes deported. It would be laughable if it wasnt so serious.

The NHS. The jewel in the UK’s crown. Being run into the ground by successive governments, in order for it to be no longer cost effective, so that it can be sold off to the private sector.
Currently bursting at the seams, because the whole world wants a piece of it. Why suffer when you can come over here and be treated for free, even though you have never contributed a penny towards it.

I know everyone has their own mind, and will vote however they want, but I just hope the majority of this country see sense on referendum day, and do the right thing for past, present and future generations.
We managed well enough before we joined, and we’ll manage well enough if we leave.

Rant Over

The second is here:

Alright, you filthy animals. I don’t normally do this, because I believe that everyone should have the right to vote how…

Posted by George Bevan on Tuesday, 24 May 2016

and again for you non-clickers here it is in full.

Alright, you filthy animals. I don’t normally do this, because I believe that everyone should have the right to vote how they want at elections, but a) this ain’t an election, it’s a referendum so go shit yourself, and b) I honestly believe that the stakes are too high for me not to get involved here. If I can influence even one person with this post, then I’ll feel like I’ve done something important. As a result, feel free to share this far and wide as I’ve done a veritable fuckload of research and I don’t want all my hard work going to waste.

So, I’ll put my cards on the table: I believe, very very strongly, that we need to stay in the EU. I never thought I’d find myself agreeing with David ‘PigFellatio’ Cameron, but in this unfortunate case I am, and here’s why.

We stand to gain SO MUCH from staying in the EU. “How much”, you’re (probably not) asking? Well, I made a convenient list for your perusal, WITH sources, so you can’t be a twat and say ‘you’re making that up!’ and froth at the mouth like a rabid cunt.

I know people on the internet like listicles with clickbait titles, so here are “14 Reasons Why We Shouldn’t Leave The EU That Everyone Should Know! You Won’t Believe #8!”:
1) The EU provides easy access to 1/3 of the world’s markets by value (in other words, the EU’s combined market value is 1/3 of the entire world’s, and we can tap into it whenever the fuck we want). [1] It also gives UK businesses preferential market access to over 50 countries OUTSIDE the EU, including some of the fastest-growing economies in the world like South Korea and South Africa. [2]
2) The EU gives us better product safety. You know, so your toddler doesn’t impale him/herself on a shittily designed toy, or swallow a load of poisonous plastic. [3]
3) The EU gives structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline (hello, Cornwall). [4]
4) The EU gave us lead-free petrol. [5]
5) The EU gives us cheaper mobile charges. [6] It also gives us cheaper air travel. [7] Fuck yeah, cheap things!
6) The EU gives us cleaner beaches, rivers and air (hello again, Cornwall). [8]
7) The EU gives us improved consumer protection and food labelling, so you actually know what it’s in your Chicken McNuggets (hint: it’s chicken. It wasn’t always chicken, though). [9]
8) The EU has helped break up monopolies. [10] If you don’t know why monopolies are a Very Bad Thing, try playing the popular board game ‘Monopoly’ and see how many friends you have left when you win.
9) The EU gives us cross-border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling, and terrorism. [11]
10) Being a member of the EU means no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market, as well as the freedom to travel, live and work across Europe. [12] This one is particularly important for me as someone who likes to live, work and travel abroad. Do you have ANY IDEA how fucking great it is to be able to travel and work visa-free?! Having to a get a visa for every single country you enter is a nightmare, believe me. If you’ve ever tried to travel around Asia, Africa or South America, you’ll understand what I’m saying.
11) The EU creates and helps uphold all kinds of awesome human rights, such as equal pay legislation, holiday entitlement, and the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime. [13] I’d also like to point out that it’s some of these same human rights that David ‘PorkTwatter’ Cameron tried to erode back in 2014, with the EU playing a major role in stopping him. [14]
12) The EU creates and upholds all kinds of great animal welfare legislation; it has the strongest wildlife protection laws in the world and contributes to improved animal welfare in food production. [15]
13) The EU funds incredible scientific research and industrial collaboration (including, most recently, a project that may be the catalyst for a cure for breast cancer being found in the next few years, I shit you not). [16]
14) Finally, and arguably most importantly, the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after many years of bloodshed. [17] It has also assisted in the extraordinary social, political and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. [18]

SOURCES:
[1] http://news.cbi.org.uk/…/eu-business-facts/10-facts-about-…/
[2] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-1080_en.htm
[3] http://ec.europa.eu/…/general_product_safety_d…/index_en.htm
[4] https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/…/european-structural-and-inve…/
[5] http://ec.europa.eu/environme…/…/project/Projects/index.cfm…
[6] https://www.theguardian.com/…/europe-abolishes-mobile-phone…
[7] http://europa.eu/…/citizens/travel/passeng…/air/index_en.htm
[8] http://www.theguardian.com/…/england-beaches-bathing-waters…
[9] http://ec.europa.eu/…/la…/labelling_legislation/index_en.htm
[10] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w…/European_Union_competition_law (I know I’m not supposed to use Wikipedia as a source for its less-than-rigorous academic standards, but FUCK YOU I’m not in uni anymore, I’ll do what I like).
[11] http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage…
[12] http://ec.europa.eu/…/borders-and-…/visa-policy/index_en.htm
[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/…/European_Convention_on_Human_R…
[14] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/David-Camerons-plan-to-scrap-t…
[15] http://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/index_en.htm
[16] http://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/94691_en.html
[17] The Second World War, motherfucker. Read a history book.
[18] The Cold War, motherfucker. Read a history book.

And now, let’s take a moment to address some of the arguments for leaving the EU. Apart from the fact that I can’t find a single reputable study that suggests we’d be any better off outside of the EU (and believe me, I’ve looked; I want to research my counterarguments as thoroughly as my arguments), the most persuasive arguments I’ve found are what I’m going to term ‘the trade argument’ and ‘the immigration argument’.

The trade argument goes as follows: if we left the EU, we could negotiate a sort of ‘amicable divorce’ where we somehow retain strong trading links with the EU while not being subject to its laws. Many people point to Canada as a good example of this model, which recently negotiated a CETA (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement- do I have to google EVERYTHING for you?) with the EU. I have two retorts to this argument. My first retort: Canada was never a part of the EU in the first place. To return to the divorce analogy outlined above- whereby the EU and the U.K. are a sort of ‘married couple’ and trade is their kids- the U.K. seeking a CETA after leaving the EU would be like a nasty, messy divorce where one parent uses the kids as a weapon against the other, threatening to take them away whenever their demands aren’t met. Canada’s CETA, meanwhile, is like a married couple approaching someone else to have a threesome at a swinger’s party, which sounds a lot more fun and exciting, I’m sure you’ll agree. My second retort to the above argument is simple: why even take the risk? If we stay in the EU, our trade with them will continue to be prosperous and full of great sex while the kids are asleep (okay, I’ve taken the analogy too far now). If we leave, however, there’s a chance any trade agreement could fail catastrophically and leave our economy in a shitstorm. In fact, I would argue the likes of Germany, France and other leading EU nations would not simply let us pick and choose what rules and trade agreements we adhere to, so the likelihood of us being absolutely fine, trade-wise, after leaving the EU seems overly optimistic. Plus negotiating a CETA of any kind could take years and have a completely uncertain outcome. Again, why take the risk? An additional point: arguments no. 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, and 12 above are examples of really great laws and regulations the EU has introduced. If you say you want to leave the EU so we have autonomy over our own laws, you know that you’re effectively handing control of our country over to David ‘HideTheSausageLiterally’ Cameron, don’t you? In terms of making laws that benefit all of us, I trust the EU way more than that guy.

The immigration argument tends to centre around the whole ‘visa-free work and travel’ thing, and is generally espoused by people terrified of dem immigantz stealin are jobz. Alternatively it’s espoused by people afraid of terrorists being able to come here more easily, but for that I’d refer you to point no. 9 above; we’re safer from terrorism in the EU because we can share intelligence and resources with other countries more easily. But back to the ‘stealing our jobs’ fear; while it’s true that technically speaking there could be an influx of foreigners coming to claim your particular job at any moment, just remember, we’ve been part of the EU for 43 years now and it hasn’t happened yet, despite what the mainstream media may tell you (and you DEFINITELY shouldn’t trust those guys; more on that later). Seriously, do you know ANYONE, personally, that has had their job stolen by a foreigner? Be honest now. I’d be willing to wager that you don’t, and I’ll explain why that is too: the immigrants that are coming here are not stealing YOUR jobs, specifically. They’re either starting their own businesses (in which case they’re actually creating jobs), or they’re skilled labourers taking jobs there just aren’t enough trained British people to take (such as doctors or surgeons), or they’re unskilled labourers taking the jobs that you don’t want (like toilet cleaning or washing dishes). Incidentally, about a year ago I taught English to some Eastern European immigrants who worked in a salad-packing factory in Lichfield. One Latvian girl was actually a teacher back home, but she was making more money as a salad-packer here than she was as a teacher in Latvia(!)- the point being that unskilled immigrant workers are generally happy to work shitty menial jobs that no British person wants, and your cushy 9-to-5 office job is not under threat. Not even a little bit- so don’t worry your xenophobic little head about it. Oh, and one last thing on this subject, to paraphrase Louis CK: maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you’re shit at your job.

If you’ve made it thus far through this absolute essay of a post, congratulations! You’re nearly at the end! But before I go, I just want to hit you with one final thought. Over 80% of UK newspapers are owned by five right-wing media billionaires (aka five massive cuntstacks): Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail), Rupert Murdoch (Sun/Times), Richard Desmond (Express), and the Barclay Brothers (Telegraph). Murdoch is an Australian living in New York and Rothermere lives in France, while the Barclay Brothers live in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes. And guess who wants to stop billionaires using tax havens to avoid paying their taxes? That’s right, the EU. So of COURSE the British newspapers are trying to persuade you to leave the EU; it benefits their owners personally. The moral of the story is, don’t gather your views from newspapers. Do some research like I have with this post, you lazy twonknoggin.

In conclusion: we’re in a really great position right now. We’re part of the EU with all the benefits that entails, but without being tied to their notoriously unstable currency. Leaving the EU would not only be hypocritical since we spent so much time telling Scotland they shouldn’t leave the UK this time last year with all that lovely ‘better together’ rhetoric, it might also be downright stupid and harmful to our economy.

tl;dr version: Vote to stay in the EU, you filthy animals. Because reasons. Trust me, I know what I’m talking about.

I know those two things make for an epic read but I’ve not come across anything (certainly not the official leaflet) that brings the two sides quite so clearly into focus.

I’m not even going to comment on them.

Thanks both.

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2 thoughts on “Still undecided on EU Referendum?

  1. RE GEORGE BEVAN POST
    TOTALLY PRETENTIOUS RHETORIC AND CLAPTRAP!

    I’ve seen better researched and referenced material in the joke section of a student rag mag!

    George, don’t let the fact that, a few choice vulgarities has been the source of amusement for some, thus contributing to a few shares on facebook, go to your head.
    Those that have obviously are blinkered by the remain campaign and have not had the foresight to check if there was any real substance of your facebook entry.

    To begin with I would point out that your entire posts, 14 reasons for remaining has been plagiarized almost verbatim at times from this article (repeated and copied in part many times) in the Guardian back in 2013.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/11/whats-eu-ever-done-us

    The real let down however, is in the substance of your article.
    Cut to the chase and we find unleadeaded petrol, safety standards on children’s toys, food labeling, clean(er) beaches and cheap(er) mobile phone charges as a few of your campaign triumphs.
    Spoken like a true selfish (what’s good for me Jack), student backpacker.

    Your post in no way discusses all the merits of the debate, instead, you have selectively chosen to single out trade and immigration only.
    If your going to attempt debate then make sure you are concise with the facts. If I was assessing that from a factual stance I would write at the top a few words that you clearly failed to discuss.

    “POLITICS, RIDICULOUS LAWS AND DEMOCRACY”, or lack of it, in particular, the non-democratically voted EU commissioners, many peoples top issues when discussing the EU vote.
    A glaring omission or a deliberate ploy to lessen the Brexit argument within your post. ?? you decide!
    As a UK citizen, I want my laws determined by the MP’s we elected as a democracy should be. What I don’t want are laws imposed on me by people who weren’t elected and are trying to find a “One size fits all” solution to many different countries who all have different tolerances, expectations and cultures.

    Take a look at ten of the barmiest,
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/586742/European-Union-barmy-decisions-rules-regulations-Britain-EU
    yes this is taken from The Express but unfortunately for those of you who are quick to dismiss it because of that….you would be completely wrong to do so….they are all real and fully explained!
    Examples including bendy cucumbers and bananas, and banning high-powered vacuum cleaners. Of all of the imposed laws from the EU, Some of our politicians quite fancy a career in the EU after their own political career has come to and end in the UK and this is the reason why I think some of them are so keen to stay.

    You state you have yet to find a single reputable study that suggests we’d be better off outside the EU.
    I guess you missed this in your less than thorough research or you will no doubt attempt to dismiss it as non-credible.
    Here it is anyway and more than credible I assure you. I have provided a synopsis below together with a link to the full report.
    https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/
    Capital Economics were commissioned by Woodford Investment Management to examine the United Kingdom’s relationship with Europe and the impact of ‘Brexit’ on the British economy.

    The report covers the economic impacts of the most important elements of the Brexit debate.
    Their overall conclusions states.

    Although the impact of Brexit on the British economy is uncertain, we doubt that Britain’s long-term economic outlook hinges on it. Things have changed a lot since 1973, when joining the European Economic Community was a big deal for the United Kingdom. There are arguably much more important issues now, such as whether productivity will recover. The shortfall in British productivity relative to its pre-crisis trend is still over 10%, so regaining that lost ground would offset even the most negative of estimates of Brexit on the economy. Based on assessing the evidence, we conclude that:

    The more extreme claims made about the costs and benefits of Brexit for the British economy are wide of the mark and lacking in evidential bases
    It is plausible that Brexit could have a modest negative impact on growth and job creation. But it is slightly more plausible that the net impacts will be modestly positive. This is a strong conclusion when compared with some studies
    There are potential net benefits in the areas of a more tailored immigration policy, the freedom to make trade deals, moderately lower levels of regulation and savings to the public purse. In each of these areas, we do not believe that the benefits of Brexit would be huge, but they are likely to be positive
    Meanwhile, costs in terms of financial services, foreign direct investment and impacts on London property markets are more likely to be short-term and there are longer-term opportunities from Brexit even in these areas
    It is not likely that any particular region or regions of the country would be more adversely affected by Brexit than the country overall. Likewise, we do find support for the notion that Brexit would benefit some sectors more than others, but the range of outcomes for production / manufacturing industries is probably wider than for services

    We continue to think that the United Kingdom’s economic prospects are good whether inside or outside the European Union. Britain has pulled ahead of the European Union in recent years, and we expect that gap to widen over the next few years regardless of whether Brexit occurs.

    I would also personally add the following quote from economist JK Galbraith – “The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable”

    It appears you’ve forgotten that this vote is about the UK staying in or leaving the EU permanently.
    Many times you are equating the vote with the current Conservative incumbents only.
    In a few years time, we may have a labour government in place, your thoughts on the EU would logically be different if the vote was to take place then, as you are simply using the current government as a primary reason for voting “remain”.
    By then however, it would be too late to do anything about it!!

    You state:
    In conclusion: we’re in a really great position right now.
    My reply is
    What exactly do you base that on, you sanctimonious spoon fed sugar dummied (safety certificated) prick! Ask those on zero hours contracts, working in a declining manufacturing base, working 3 jobs just to pay the bills how “really fucking great life is”
    You carry on with your adventures with kids in Thailand and comment when you have life experience worthy of note and are truly effected by the issues at play in this country.

    part plagiarizing your summary

    Vote to leave the EU, you filthy animals,because trust me, George hasn’t got a bloody clue what he’s talking about.
    Also, do some research like I have with this post, you lazy twonknoggin.!

    Like

    • The European Commission has dedicated a whole section of it’s site to ‘myth busting’ all the daft misinterpretations that have been bandied around in long term ani-EU propaganda …you may find it of interest, Gary.
      http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

      By the way…you get this months prize for longest comment – such a shame it was written to George and not to me….I hope as you can’t post on his facebook this gave you some catharsis.

      As I posted pieces from two individuals I’d be very interested in your take on the other…I’m making a tentative guess that he’s more your side of the fence.

      cheers
      e.c.

      Like

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